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Prince Charming? It’s not really so much to ask.
by dirtyandthirty

It’s baffling to me that men in Los Angeles haven’t yet figured out how to date. After years of observing, experiencing and listening to women talk about what’s wrong in LA’s dating scene, the biggest, most obvious factor is a lack of chivalry and good manners.

 

I realize that completely figuring women out is an impossibility in the same way that we’ll never fully understand men either (isn’t that the fun of dating?) but when it comes to the first steps, it’s really quite simple. While the general lack of good manners in LA is a topic that I wish more parents would pay attention to, these few paragraphs are just here to spell out what a lot of men somehow haven’t learned yet.

 

I’m not talking about big over the top gestures (although if nothing else seems to be working, maybe you should give it a try). I’m just referring to the very basic ways of asking a woman out and winning her over. We’re not as hard to please as you think (well, most of us… I do admit there are some women that are just plain crazy. My suggestion? Stop dating those women.)

 

Step 1 – Ask a woman out and be clear that you’re asking her on a date. Texting her to come to your buddy’s house party is not a date. Suggestions like ‘lets grab drinks” is too vague (I mean, seriously. Is that a date? Or are we just drinking buddies?) If you want to take her out, pick up the phone, dial her number and repeat after me: Hi. How are you? Are you free on Friday? I’d like to take you out to dinner. I’ll pick you up at 8pm.

 

Now, that wasn’t so hard, was it?  (An extra tip:  Don’t make it her job to plan an evening that you invited her to. I hate when a guy asks me out and then follows it with “so where do you wanna go?” Ugh.) 

 

Step 2 – Show up on time. Dressed nicely. In a clean car.  I don’t think I can be any clearer than that.

 

Step 3 – The date. The point of taking a woman out is to get to know her and to impress her.  Women are impressed by how much thought you put in (arguably some women are more impressed by how much money you put in, but I’m discussing the masses of amazing genuine women here rather than the gold digging shells who offer you nothing more than eye candy and easy sex so back to the rest of us…) You don’t have to take a girl to the most expensive restaurant in town. Find out a bit about us and put some thought into it. You know she likes Mexican food? Take her to that little hole in the wall with the best tacos in town. If they’re that good, she’ll be impressed you showed her somewhere new! Again, let me be clear, it’s the THOUGHT that impresses. So taking her to the hole-in-the-wall-amazing-taco-spot isn’t going to do much good if she hates Mexican food.

 

Step 4. Pay the bill. I might spark a little bit of controversy with this one but if we’re honest with ourselves, we do actually want the man to pay, at least on the first date and we always want him to offer. If you want to impress her (even if she’s an “independent career woman” who claims she wants to split the bill!), don’t let her pay for dinner on a first date. (Tell her she can get dessert at the next spot.)

 

Women notice good manners! If I had a dollar for every time I heard a girl gushing about whether or not “he opened the door for me” I’d be sailing on my 50 ft yacht in the Med by now. Open the doors (including her car door!), help her with her coat, ask her opinion if you’re ordering wine, say please and thank you (to the waiter and the valet too! If you’re faking good manners for your date, we’ll spot it. I went out with a guy who seemed to have lovely manners until he held open the restaurant door for me and let it shut on the woman behind me! Such a turn off). Good manners should be second nature, no matter who you are. Stop wondering why women complain that chivalry is dead in LA, and bring it back to life already!

Don’t drop the manners on the way home. The date’s not over until you’ve walked her to her car or to her front door. (Unless you actually get invited to come in, in which case the date’s not over until you close the front door behind you in the morning!)If you really like the girl then don’t try to sleep with her. It only makes the whole evening feel like an act to get her into bed. Give her a goodnight kiss and ask her out again!

 

Still lost? All you need to know is repeated for you in every romantic movie ever made. Even when the Titanic was going down, Leo was still treating Kate like a lady… Men over 30, it should be a no-brainer by now. You managed to get through law school, med school, high school, even learning the alphabet in kindergarten..so how hard can it be to learn that good manners and a little bit of chivalry goes a long way with the ladies. 

 

Once chivalry returns, then maybe we can work on bringing romance back too.

 

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38 Responses to Prince Charming? It’s not really so much to ask.

  1. Joseph Johnson says:

    the problem is (and I’m not form LA… Indianapolis, Indiana actually) is that women are all different. some might want you to pay for it, some might not. some may not want you to try to have sex on the first date, some may feel inadequate if you don’t at least try. some women like chivalry, some women think that it makes you a pansy (niceness as a form of weakness) or even a sexist (“what, i can’t open the door for myself, is it too heavy, dick”). Adult personalities and opinions pretty much can’t be changed. so instead of telling men that you should do this and you shouldn’t do that, shouldn’t you be telling people that they should just be patient, and wait for the one that suits you the most. it may take longer, but at least you aren’t telling people what they need to think and feel and do, like they’re pets.

    • Kara says:

      You’re right, it’s different for everybody. Men and women. Patience is both a virtue and enigma. And who wants to dictate to anyone how they SHOULD act/behave? Don’t we want people to be themselves? After all, this saves us lots of time and irritation, and, oh, actually alleviates the need for patience when someone is just upfront and honest about who they are in the beginning.

      I’m also from the Midwest (Indiana, actually) and I’m beginning to sense a vast difference in the dating scene between here (Midwest) and there (LA). There’s also a wide difference between salaries, cost of living, activities available for dates, etc. between here and there.

      I agree that women are all different, as are men. Even though it’s just easier to say sometimes, “they’re all the same.” Patience sounds like a great piece of advice – holding out for the one who suits YOU best. :)

  2. Joseph Johnson says:

    awww, i meant “from* LA”. :)

  3. Alecsander says:

    Emily Post’s etiquette book, upatded by one of her younger relatives, is a good reference. I also like the Miss Manners books. Their Q A format is very breezy and readable. Probably out of print by now is Peg Bracken’s I Try to Behave Myself . She uses funny names for her characters: Mrs. Social DeZastre, the party-throwing Hooplahs, and the ever-polite Mr. and Mrs. Goodguest.If you get the chance to read Letitia Baldridge’s book on manners, you’ll learn a lot about formal entertaining and the Washington diplomatic scene. Somebody once gave me an etiquette book from the late 19th century. It was interesting to read about calling cards, formal teas, and what was expected from your servants. Basically, though, ladylike behavior boils down to:e2€“ Perfect table mannerse2€“ Quiet, sedate behavior at parties and other social occasionse2€“ Conservative dress and perfect personal groominge2€“ Tactful handling of any faux pas, of one’s own or by otherse2€“ Knowledge of proper forms for introductions, invitations, thank-you notes, etc.e2€“ A basic attitude of kindness and consideration for othersSo get hold of a contemporary etiquette book or two, and study. You will probably never need all the things they discuss, but they make fascinating reading just the same.

  4. Fenando says:

    I agree with the last answer, and I can add a cuploe things First, don’t be loud. Loud women come across as obnoxious party girls.Don’t chew gum on a date.Go with the conservative clothing (from the last answer) and don’t wear too tight or revealing clothes.Don’t constantly be on your cellphone (that = ignoring him)Don’t be a gossip (around him anyway, guys hate that stuff)Do say Thank you for dinner, lunch, and for opening doorsDo sit up straight and watch your postureDo be eager to talk to him about anything if you seem interested he will find YOU interestingGood luck!

  5. Hey Chiabella, just read your article. I totally feel you here, it rains D-bags in Los Angeles. I will give you a more detailed response in a little bit, we’ll see if can find you a D-bag umbrella because when it rains it pours out there. :)

  6. Ecclesiastes says:

    I have some bad news for you.

    I’m older, old enough to be your father. I am, in fact, father to a couple of the young men you keep hoping to meet.

    They are honest and sincere young men, loyal, faithful, and prone to be the kind of idiot and tool their father was. I have been counselling them against chivalry as forcefully as I can. Fortunately, your “sisters” have been helping me.

    They have been ignored, used as emotional tampons, had their wallets emptied. You know, all the everyday common things women do to young men that, honestly, they just don’t feel *that* way about. All of their friends are getting the same treatment. My boys are finally listening to their old man.

    And here’s what I’m telling them:

    No matter how good she looks, how good she cooks, or how she laughs at your jokes, somebody somewhere is tired of her shit.

    Love is the illusion that this woman is different from all other women, she’s not.

    Women start lying when they start putting on makeup. Women never dress by accident.

    The only thing behind the show and all of the reason for it is to get something they don’t deserve and can’t ask for straight up.

    Guilt is the weapon the weak use to subdue the strong. If you don’t know why she’s upset, she’s playing you.

    No one is more indignant than the guilty.

    There are no ladies. There was a list of virtues and duties for ladies under chivalry, a different list than the one for gentlemen. No woman knows what was on the list, and almost none knows such a list existed. No woman is owed chivalry anymore.

    Feminism is a philosophy to justify a woman never growing up. Ask any 8 year old what they think and you’ll know the Feminist position.

    All women are Feminists, no exceptions.

    Never ever EVER get romantically involved with a woman with children. The children come first and you are only a means to an end.

    40% of first marriges fail. Women initiate over 2/3rds of the divorces. Men are coerced to file for half the rest. They get custody 85% of the time. A divorced man will have a quarter of his lifetime earning confiscated. Courts do not monitor nor enforce visitation. The numbers don’t add up. Don’t marry.

    This is what I’m teaching them. You and yours are helping me.

    Thank you for your support.

    • Yazz Michael Michaels says:

      Amen brother.

      Excellent comment. Western women – for the most part – just don’t seem to get the nightmare they’ve created. Predictably, they are now trying to get the men to change back again.

      It’s a bit like teaching a dog. Be a wild bad boy now, now be chivalrous, now be nice.

      How about this: NO!

      Western men are tired of western women’s princess entitlement mentality. Increasingly, they are shunning western women and searching where the grass is greener (=better women). If they do have relations with western women it’s increasingly pump and dump, which is the only sane strategy left.

      Answer me this, you empowered women: Why would a western man even *want* to marry you? Why would he pay full price for a tired carousel rider, who’s had at least 20 other sexual partners in her life? Why would he want to risk getting divorce-raped?

      I say to you: We owe you nothing. We want nothing more to do with you. We are going our own way. And this time you *WILL* take responsibility for your actions.

      • I understand your pain, I look at like this, democracy is not perfect, sometimes you gotta look at the glass as being half full and be grateful we don’t have tanks on the streets every four years. Hang in there.

  7. First and for most, I can only speak for myself because if I were speaking for other guys that would just be disingenuous. I was on Eharmony for a year and went out with at least 50 different women and I essentially followed all of your above mentioned steps down to the last letter. None of the women I dated seemed to notice or be receptive. They weren’t negative, it just did not seem to register one way or the other. I am not a good BS artist, (tongue and cheek humor here) I have sodium pentathol in my veins I can’t lie. I think to my detriment I call a spade a spade, and in Los Angeles, it hard to believe a guy can be as honest as I am not think I am full of it. I am the group enigma, I am very complex, the conventional wisdom is guys are simple, I am not, I am that Mars rover, one of the most complex things ever built. I make renowned physicist Steven Hawking easy to understand. :) Odds are I have given Stuart here at Dirty and Thirty and some of her friends from Ithaca College headaches trying to figure me out, I have given myself headaches trying to figure me out, (more tongue and cheek humor here) I just tell myself and anybody else out there who wonders about me, its not worth me getting a frontal lobotomy. I gotten to the point where I have gone through all the stages of grief and just arrived at acceptance. I try to do my best to educate and inform, to promote greater understanding, I am very comfortable talking about my complexity, for anybody who wants to understand me at a deeper level, I just feel its like, women don’t know what questions to ask me to understand me better. I am happy to help people put a framework together to figure out what those questions are. Its almost like its awkward for women to even ask about me at any real deep level and I don’t know what to do to alleviate the feeling of awkwardness or anxiety. I would never judge anybody for wanting to get to know me at a deeper more meaningful level. I am totally open to any advice or recommendations. Please continue to develop and further this discussion, if anybody wants to talk to me privately just shoot me a message on above Facebook link and in my Facebook message inbox. Odds are I am not a lone, evolving this conversation would do both men and women a world of good.

  8. There is a hidden assumption in your advice. That men want to impress an American woman. Very few men have any genuine interest in American women these days.

    I think a better article would be this: How to avoid American women without appearing to do so.

  9. Wow, now that we have voiced our concerns and I can see that there are many, the next step would be try and trouble-shoot some of the root causes, hopefully we can evolve this here to work towards a solution.

  10. Kara says:

    Wow. What a couple of Negative Nancy’s. 40% of first marriages end in divorce. Although those statistics are obviously staggering and intimidating, what about the 60% who don’t. There ARE happy couples out there, they just don’t seem to get as much press. What we tend to focus on is all the negative, all the gold-diggers, nice guys getting duped, assholes using women for sex, cheating, lying, people not being REAL with themselves, and those in the dating world.

    So what you really want, “Ecclesiastes,” is for your sons to never take risks, quit getting hurt, never find love and happiness, a companion to share themselves with and both support and BE supported in every way possible? What a sad, negative existence.

    All women are not the same. We share similar ideas, qualities, features, but some of us couldn’t feel more alien from the self-obsessed, gold-digging whores of the world. Hell, I held onto my most recent relationship longer than I should’ve because I don’t think he’s a bad guy (despite some really awful actions at times) and I still don’t. Even if he moves on. Even if I’m left with heartbreak a little longer than I’d like. I held on with him because I was putting HIS needs ahead of my own. I knew he was depressed and I couldn’t bear the thought of him “going it alone.” I wanted to be there, for comfort, a friend, support, a listening ear, a shoulder to lean on. I realize this wasn’t serving either of us in drawing out the clear fact that we weren’t good together, at least not at this point in our lives. But if THAT’S my biggest flaw, caring too much, I’d rather be THAT kind of woman than the one you described above.

    I think what Chiabella is trying to get across is that we want to be treated nicely. We want our dudes to at least make an effort to act like they care, and if they don’t, why the hell are they asking us out in the first place? Why are they wasting our time, and theirs? People want to feel special, both men and women.

    As for women’s roles, I see your point in the virtues and duties of women and how it has been sometimes abandoned or transformed over time. http://www.medievalfantasiesco.com/codeofchivalry.htm
    But transformation isn’t such a bad thing. Above all, I think the key in this article is that both men and women had RESPECT for each other, undying commitment, and selflessness. This wouldn’t be such a bad thing to return our focus to.

    Women lie when they put on makeup? I have never been a girl who wears much makeup. I don’t know how to apply it correctly, nor do I like the way my face feels “caked on.” I prefer to be natural 98% of the time. But I don’t think, when I put on a little powder, colorful eyeshadow, lipgloss, or mascara that I am putting on a “mask” or “lying” by “hiding” anything. I am enhancing what I already have. Nice hazel eyes, long lashes. Big, full lips. When the makeup comes off, I am not scared or ashamed that I hid anything from anyone. And I am definitely not the kind of woman who can’t leave the house without some kind of makeup. I don’t do it to impress, disguise. I do it to feel better about MYSELF (maybe once a week, if that).

    Chiabella, I understand what you are saying here. But there are types of chivalrous men who are phonies, too. Beware of over-the-top chivalrous dudes. Deep down, they may just be harboring resentment and disguising their shared belief with “Ecclesiastes” that no woman is deserving of chivalry. I’m with you, though, we want something THOUGHTFUL. I don’t need someone to open a door for me, last I checked, my arms still worked just fine. But walk BESIDE me, not ahead of me. Be my PARTNER, not my doormat or knight I have to chase down. Be real, be honest, be sincere.

    As for “walking in hell,” if you hate American women so much, move the fuck to another country and quit “pretending” to give a shit about impressing us. Way to disregard an entire population of people as though you are somehow above them and their existence has no worth. Good for you.

  11. Pirran says:

    @Adam

    Women are no more complex than men (Adam, you’re not a unique snowflake roaming free from the herd; sorry).

    The sum of Chiabella’s post seems to be that women are entitled to special treatment from men to prove their worthiness just as their grandfathers did. As Ecclesiastes points out, these rules no longer apply (if they ever did). These rules certainly no longer apply to those under 30. If women are sexually available (in order to prove their tough, go-getting independence from men – you go grrrl) then men are going to take advantage. Why would you expect otherwise? It certainly beats the one-sided disaster that awaits them in family court when their ex gets bored or distracted by the bad-boy biker down the street. Why should men invest their time and money in women who give it away (with enthusiasm) to the next guy in line?

    Chiabella’s observations are the Princess fantasies of the permanently deluded. Radical feminism changed the rules 40 years ago although the consequences are only becoming apparent now a generation or so later. Should women be able to do whatever they please? Absolutely. Should they have to live with the consequences of those actions? Absolutely. Should men have to pretend that equality only belongs in the workplace and not in the dating pool? Absolutely NOT.

    These are the new rules that women themselves helped to bring about. For Chiabella to hypocritically whine that she finds them distasteful is pathetic.

  12. Kara says:

    Another thing. Isn’t a relationship of any kind about how you make each other FEEL? Kind words are nice, but making someone FEEL good often comes from actions of kindness, caring, support, respect. But making someone FEEL as though they are special doesn’t have to come from some grand gesture of “chivalry.” However, from continued love, support, showing day after day that you are there for them and their feelings are valid, worthwhile, important.

  13. Ecclesiastes says:

    Kara,

    I know math is hard, but the same statistical analysis that makes casinos and insurance companies billions says marriage is no longer worth the risk. It may be a sad negative life, but it’s better than being emotionally destroyed and bankrupted for life. Do note that without the help of the vast majority of you and yours, they wouldn’t be listening to me. It doesn’t matter if not all women are like that. Enough are, so marriage is a stupid decision.

    Yes, chivalry has changed … because women don’t hold up their end. They can’t even find out how anymore. It’s become a fraud, a scam. Even on that page you reference, the virtues of a lady are abscent, the duties only partially described. Well, what can one expect of a medieval FANTASY website? It has to play to an audience, not give cold instruction.

    I have daughters too, by the way. I give them the directions on discerning a good man from a bad one, directions your great grandmother gave to her daughters but you don’t get to know anymore. They know how to make marriage work for a lifetime, with or without the law. They know things about impressing the kind of man you want. All you have is lip gloss, perfume, and cleavage. I read what you wrote, and that’s all you’ve got.

    You can be indignant if you want.

    • Kara says:

      Ecclesiastes,

      I’m curious to hear your daughters’ voices on this discussion. Sounds to me like they are the only women fitting of love and happiness and a lifelong commitment from someone. I understand that you might be saying that men get the raw end of the deal through divorce. And it seems as though you have had your share of heartbreak, emotional destruction and financial ruin. And I say that’s a shame.

      Despite my feeling indignant, I assume you are a father who cares deeply for his children and wants the best for them, minus all the heartbreak and turmoil that comes with the increasingly flawed institution of marriage. Parents who care are great.

      Call me naive or silly or uneducated (I’d argue my $30,000 in student loan debt for a Bachelor’s was a waste of time then), but I believe there should be some stronger penalty for divorce, some increase in cost to wed more than once, SOMETHING, ANYTHING to get people to take the whole institution more seriously. I’d agree, the vow to love and support and cherish FOREVER is a joke. So many, most, don’t take this seriously. If it were really ’til DEATH do us part, would so many marry at all? I seriously think not. Either that, or there would be a lot more “accidental” deaths surfacing.

      But let’s get back to my naivete, and inability to comprehend math and statistics. I still think it’s POSSIBLE. For me, and not for everyone, I’d like to believe that there is someone out there who will get irritated by, fed up with, exhausted by my “shit,” but will recognize that they also allow me to endure some of their own (shit, that is). And LOVE ME ANYWAY. See who I am, deep down, and appreciate and love that. Because none of us are perfect, we’re all flawed. And while marriage might not be for some, or most, I hope it’s for me. Someday.

      Lastly, as far as financial ruin, that is a huge fear, and reality, for so many. I don’t think pre-nups are such a horrible idea. And I firmly believe in keeping separate accounts, access to one’s money that is “shared” by no one, as well as a joint account that each party puts the same percentage into for household bills, children, “married stuff.” I don’t want to be financially ruined, nor do I want to “ruin” someone else’s life.

      I realize this may only add ammo to the fire, but I’ve watched my mother go through 3 marriages, and 2 divorces. I hope you will not attack my mother as you have me. Despite her flaws and obvious lack at keeping a marriage together, besides all of her flaws, she is my mother and I love her because of that. She’s also probably why my sister waited until 26 to marry (which I still find to be “too young”) and why I’ve never married, or pushed for or laid some sort of ultimatum down for any of the guys I’ve failed relationships with and still remain “never married” at 29. I’m scared. And I’m obviously not picking the right guys (there are a number of theories we could dive into).

      This doesn’t sway me from being the hopeless romantic dope that believes someday, it will all work out. I suppose, in the meantime, I will take my three assets – lipgloss, perfume, and cleavage – and carry on.

      I apologize for attacking you initially. Something you said really got under my skin. I know I’m not supposed to admit that. Maybe it’s the fact that I’m recovering from a breakup – rejection, hurt = anger, feeling worthless, unlovable, unwanted, etc. Or maybe you and all the other fellas who have cast me out are right. But something inside me tells me to press on. Not to become too jaded or lose sight of who I am. Someone who loves others so much it hurts. And would do anything, emotionally or financially in my power to better those I care about. And who is continually aiming for reaching and maintaining the best version of herself.

      • Ecclesiastes says:

        This requires a thoughtful and sincere reply, and will take an extra day.

      • Ecclesiastes says:

        I will do this in pieces for clarity.

        I am sorry that your feelings were hurt. I’m not averse to the practice of inflicting pain in pursuit of a worthy goal, but neither am I ever glad of it.

        Please, allow me to clarify my thoughts.

        Of all I wrote, only one thing was written to you:
        “All you have is lip gloss, perfume, and cleavage. I read what you wrote, and that’s all you’ve got.”

        In parallel:

        “All you have is jeans, sunglasses, and a tubetop. I just looked at you and that’s all you’ve got.”

        Which is to say, if you want what you’re saying, then you’ll need more stuff.

        I am not your enemy. I don’t hate you. I don’t even hate those like you.

        I am, however, a father. I am not a mother. Mothers cuddle you and tell you how wonderful you are. Fathers put your ass to work. Both love their children.

        Children grow up. Parents die. My job is to make sure that when you crawl out of the cave, away from the home fire, into the jungle, that the world doesn’t kill you. It is not my job to be loved.

        Now, there is an ugly joke men tell:

        “What is a woman? A life support system for a pu$$y.”

        It has been a greater and greater disappointment throughout my life that, while men told the joke, women embraced it as the truth. They have, generally, abandoned all other qualities, skills, and virtues and put all their focus on using sex to deal with men.

        The link you provided noted other ancient ways women made themselves desirable to men, but – frankly – hid them so you couldn’t see them. They are difficult for me to see and I know what I’m looking for.

      • Ecclesiastes says:

        “All you have is lip gloss, perfume, and cleavage.”

        I don’t like saying that, but there it is. You’re going to need more.

        Lists of virtues usually numbered 7 or 12. The list for Gentlemen is well known.

        The list for ladies is almost lost. Women’s only thought of being a Lady is that it is a bad thing that isn’t discussed anymore. What women do discuss Chivalry, simply go forth with the Gentleman’s list and assume women’s virtues must be the same.

        Well, the idea that women and men are the same is a modern perversion. In those times women were to complement men.

        Honesty, courage, integrity … those things weren’t on the Lady’s list. That’s what Gentlemen were for.

        For you, the short list:

        piety, chastity, gentility, civility, charity, poise, humility

        There was a movie “Robin Hood, Prince of Thieves” starring Kevin Costner and Alan Rickman. Watch it. Examine Marian closely.

      • Ecclesiastes says:

        Ah. A wasted effort. I’ll have to be more mindful of the pace of this blog, of how quickly post become old.

  14. Giap says:

    Modern women don’t deserve chivalry. Chivalry is deference. Deference is for ladies. A lady is demure, modest, courteous and unassertive. Very few modern women are ladies, frankly. Ladies don’t interrupt the men when they are talking.

    If you’re a strong, independent woman then pay for your own lunch instead of expecting old fashioned privilege while declaring how you are equal to a man.

    A lady or a modern women. Pick one.

    • Kara says:

      You make a good point. Age old “chivalry” doesn’t really exist anymore. Modern woman is a great way to look at it now. I honestly don’t know Chiabella, but I strongly suspect she may have a similar history to mine…where the fact she has a steady income often leads her to picking up the tab more often than not. And feeling taken advantage of in the end.

      Why don’t we try taking care of each other instead of arguing that one should “pick up the tab” over the other?

  15. So for men and women in a relationship what is the middle ground between being a doormat and a knight, can a metric be developed that can accurately assess what it might entail?

    • Kara says:

      I don’t believe there is any metric that can be developed to find a “happy medium” in relationships. I think it comes down more to taking a step back, looking at the whole picture – and realizing (sometimes and in MY case) that maybe I am the problem. Why aren’t these relationships working out? Why am I choosing what seems to be the same type of guy, or at least a guy prone to cheat, use, and/or never fully commit? Clearly, I am doing something wrong here, because although a lot weren’t worth my time or energy, or heartbreak, some were really good guys who it just didn’t “work out” with.

      I think, in the case of the doormat, if you FEEL unappreciated, her thank-yous seem insincere or she no longer (or never did) acknowledge your kind deeds, maybe it’s time for YOU to walk away. As someone who has spent a lot of time as a doormat, whether blatantly or unintentionally used, I know in the future, I have to be more honest with myself. And take some sort of stand, even walk away, when the relationship isn’t making me feel GOOD or BETTER about myself.

      To be perfectly honest, I wouldn’t know what to do with a guy who DID shower me with affection, kind words, picking up the bill for more than a month or two. I tend to perceive it as insincere. Despite the theory that all women are gold-digging, liars who wear makeup, etc, I have spent my relationships either picking up the tab, or splitting things evenly…ALWAYS. Even being the primary financial force with the steady job and ability to pay bills and continue to live on my own, pay off my own debt, etc.

      This may be where age old chivalry is dead. I’m no expert. I don’t want to feel like I NEED a man in that way, but I sure WANT one to share my life with, eventually. I’ve always said, “I don’t need a man to support me. I just want a PARTNER in life.” Someone to get through the struggles, the ups and downs, share the good stuff with.

      So, I guess, just be yourself, but be HONEST with yourself. It’s tough to take a step back when you’re in the middle of something, but if someone isn’t making you feel like the best version of yourself, they’re not “the one.”

      • Hey kara,

        Thanks for your note and response. Those are some great insights. What really hit home for me was the last line you said about being the best version of yourself and about saying I need a partner. (Tongue and cheek humor here) Given the complexity of my ADD/ADHD and the Prozac and Ritalin I use to keep tabs on it, I feel its like I need a partner who is okay with me having an IT department/support staff too. Meaning she’s cool if I she needs to talk to my neurologist to figure out how I am feeling because sometimes I just don’t know how I am feeling. So she could get accurate feedback. Somebody who has a big enough heart to love me despite me being a maintenance nightmare. Also when you mentioned partner, the other analogy I use is when you said partner I thought of a business partnership. (More tongue and cheek humor here) I am the guy who needs a corporation and exe board along with the partner. This is best work around I can come up with, or else I am complete basket case. This is me being as honest as possible with myself because if I just can’t be full of boloney. (more tongue and cheek humor here) this is why I need to find a women who is a neurologist. So she can tell me, if this event happens, if your brain was operating in a conventional sense it would react in this fashion. I would look like small potatoes to what she usually deals with a work so I would be someone who she can understand at deep level without driving her crazy. I wish I was simple but those were not the cards I was dealt so I gotta play what I got in my hand. Thank you very much again for your beautiful and thoughtful response. The world needs more people like you.

  16. @Pirrian

    Thanks for the note, I got a good laugh out of it, I am glad to know I am not alone. The joke I always use is they say insanity runs in some families, in mine it gallops. :) For the record I have ADD/ADHD (this is what i mean by being complex) I never had the attention span to focus on the rest of the herd so by default I am roaming alone. The Ritalin only lasts for so long so I walk around with GPS in my phone for a reason. So if a solar flare happens and the satellite goes on the fritz I’m in trouble. The herd needs to start leaving a trail of bread crumbs for me :) Because I don’t notice the herd has left until its to late. So in a nutshell what you are saying that I need to find some one as equally unique as I am? I am on board with that strategy, I just would feel kind of creepy going through somebody’s medical records searching for pre-existing conditions. Unfortunately, there is no box I can check on the Eharmony program for ADD/ADHD as much as I wish there was. So the question becomes where to do people like me begin? I leave this open to any one out there for ideas, I am for innovative and outside the box thinking.

  17. Lad says:

    It’s reasonable to expect the host to pay the bill, the host being the person who planned the date and invited the other person.

    It’s also reasonable for men to expect that women share some of the costs involved in getting to know each other. If you haven’t had sex and especially if you plan on denying him and judging him for even trying to get in your pants, you need to offer something other than trite conversation. One way to do that is to take some initiative and actually plan activities and pay for dates yourself.

    If are aren’t willing to invest in the courtship, you need to take a serious look at what you DO offer. What is it about you that will excite him, if you are not as beautiful as Cinderella and aren’t willing to have “easy sex” without investment and commitment?

    • My uncle was in the navy and he told me a good sailor can alway find love for free. I try and live by it when I can but the realist side of me is just laughing over the irony of that statement.

  18. So now the question seems how does one get back on the proverbial horse we fell off in regards to putting oneself back together after several failed relationships?

  19. Myshkin says:

    Is there no welfare? And Social Security, is it still in operation?

    From what you said at first I was afraid that something had happened to stop those institutions in their useful course.

    I’ll gladly hold a door for you. But I pay taxes, and quite a lot of them, to support women. That should be enough. I have no interest in supporting one particular woman who pretends to be my own.

    • Ecclesiastes says:

      Scrooge!

      I’m embarrassed I didn’t see this earlier.

      • Alaa says:

        If you look for them, there are plenty of cases that are even more ufnair than the Mary Winkler case.There are women shooting their husbands in the back for life insurance, women having hit men kill their military husbands as they came back from overseas and any other number of bizarre cases – and the woman either serve very short jail terms or get off completely.It’s truly bizarre.I recently saw an article in the Internet about how people simply rationalize things when a patently ufnair situation is presented before their very eyes. A murdered person was probably involved in a drug deal or was abusive or otherwise earned it. That helps to mitigate the angst that something like that could happen to YOU. Without any reason for it.But we prosecute men who commit murder, why the (chivalry) pass with regard to women?

  20. Anonymous age 70 says:

    Negative Nancy’s, Kara? So, what kind of Negative Nancy would even note a trivial thing like a 40% divorce rate, and at least 1/4 of them not seeing their kids again, but being forced to pay child support, and tossed in jail if they lose their jobs? Just think positive and all will be well?

    A friend says, talk is cheap when you are telling someone else what to do.

    Would you walk out your front door if there were 40% odds a terrorist would put a bullet in your brain. This is a rhetorical question, of course you would not. But, you shame someone for avoiding marriage with a 40% divorce rate.

    Women like you who try to lecture and shame men who do not buy your views are simply not qualified to evaluate American Women. Why? Because you don’t know any sane women, just women like yourself.

    And, I am serious, I am not just casting out insults. Living in another nation for a length of time and knowing sane women, one learns AW are simply put not totally sane. This is not a personal problem. We are all products of our cultures, and the culture in the US involves an insane view of life by women, messed up by several generations of feminism who tell them every female thought and desire is ordained by God, er, I mean Gaia. And, men’s feelings are not important.

    Until someone lives a considerable time in a sane society, one has no idea what mentally healthy women are like, and that includes men. Living with insane women, most AM aren’t much better.

    I was on a board a few years ago, and told the men there that one can tell a Mexican woman from an AW, 10 meters away, by the angry look on the face of the AW. The owner of the board flew into Guadalajara for the weekend just to see if it were true, and reported, “It’s true!”

    He and all his staff are now expats.

    Here is the real problem. Almost 50 years ago, feminists decided they wanted to restructure society, and marriage and divorce. So, they began lobbying for changes in laws. Any man who dared to speak out against any change no matter how insane was essentially destroyed, even losing employment ala Larry Summers.

    So, after nearly 50 years of making changes with absolutely no input from men, men finally decided they did not want to play house under women’s rules.

    And, women like you have no idea what most men are thinking, of the rules, or of you as a woman. So ,when someone like Ecc. tells you exactly what he thinks of AW, you think there is something really wrong with HIM.

    A famous general once said, Keep your friends close and your enemies even closer. This means always know what your enemies are thinking and planning. You women for the most part don’t have any idea what most men think and feel. And, when someone like Ecc., or me, tells you, you dismiss us as defective men.

    PRENUPS: Prenups are not binding in any state in the Union as far as I know. Law in almost all states allow judges to rip them up if the result is not “just” whatever that means. The only difference I see is with a prenup, judges tend to only give 1/3 of everything a man has earned instead of 1/2 when the amount should be zero. It is never a good idea to write about things you know nothing about.

  21. Lisa says:

    I’ve never played mind games on a guy before. And I’ve only had 3 boyfriends in my life. And I learned three lessons from those 3 relationships. 1. My first relationship lasted a year. I had to basically spoon feed the guy because his heart was broken by his previous girlfriend. He ended up using me as his escape. LESSON: MEN USE WOMAN AS WOMAN USE MEN. I used him for affection.
    2. My second relationship lasted 3 months. LESSON LEARNED: IF YOU DON’T GIVE A MAN WHAT HE WANTS HE’LL GO SEEK IT ELSEWHERE. 3. My last relationship lasted a week. LESSON: IF A MAN CAN’T STEP UP AND BE A REAL MAN, THEN CHANCES ARE HE WAS NEVER A MAN TO BEGIN WITH. The funny thing is, I never asked for to much. My idea of a perfect date, would be renting out horror movies/ watching stand up comedians whilst eating a couple of snacks (Without any expectations). A date that would only have cost a man no more than $10 and a sense of respect. Yet, that was too much to ask for. The truth is, there are no more REAL MEN in this world. And it’s not their fault or ours. We just live in a time, where love is but a fairytale told to children to give them something to hope for. I’ve learned one other lesson from men and women. LESSON: If they continue to act like blind fools, they will die as such. Alone. With no one. And that is the price. So if you’re going to be a jerk, then just make sure you’re prepared to pay for it. Other than that. Stop chasing love or trying to convinve people it’s true. This is not Peter pan. And no matter how many people chant “I love you” It won’t bring love back to life.

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